Keeping Marriage Intimate and Strong When Current Statistics are Stacked Against You

Crissy  

Thank you, Cindi. We’re gonna just go ahead and dive right in. According to the American Psychological Association, approximately 40 to 50% of first marriages end in divorce, the divorce rate for second marriages is actually even higher, with approximately 60 to 67% of second marriages ending in divorce.

Yet as I was diving through these numbers, I realized that they don’t really do it. Justice. They don’t do this question justice, for example, statistics from 2023. And obviously COVID. And the pandemic kind of played a role in all of this. But we see that the rate of divorce is actually going down, which is wonderful. However, we also note that the rate of marriage is declining even more rapidly. So some people are just deciding not to get married, which obviously would impact the number of divorces that we are seeing.

According to the US Census Bureau, the average time a couple is married before getting divorced is eight years. And at first I was like that’s much longer than I thought. But then I remember hearing about the seven year itch or something along those lines. And it made me think, oh, maybe that doesn’t make sense.

Without question. Being with the same person for a long time is filled with a host of very unique challenges. We would love to dive in and hear from our expert panelists, what are the most common relationship struggles you see with clients, patients, or even just among your own circle of friends?

And as we’re diving into that, I’d love to kind of think about what are some of the contributing factors that make not just divorce, but also dissatisfaction in long term relationships so prevalent because not every dissatisfied relationship ends in divorce. Sometimes people just sit and marinate in that dissatisfaction and kind of stay there. So we would love to hear from our panelists on that topic.

Kyrsten Spurrier  

I would say what I see as a pelvic floor therapist is painful sex and how that impacts one’s confidence in themselves, and then their relationship with their partner. And how it’s such a big role of our humanity of being able to have sex and have that feel comfortable for them.

And so, really after childbirth, I see a lot of moms that become not so okay with that part of their life and working with them to really have more ownership of their sexual life, but also getting it to feel more comfortable for them.

Veronica Kemeny  

Hi, this is Veronica Kemeny, I’ll chime in and piggyback. I’m trying to think of how far back I’ve heard this. But I had heard that the major conflicts in marriage tend to be sex, money and kids. So definitely just like Kyrsten was bringing up. And so I think that is really the big three that I see a lot, you know, financial challenges with the economy over the last couple of years, COVID, Parenting challenges, sex and intimacy as Kyrsten brought up and then if there are children in the family and co-parenting challenges, that’s my specialty, as a mental health practitioners working with folks who are pregnant postpartum, attempting to conceive, grappling with loss, and I would say, nuances in their marriage and how things shift and evolve in terms of the why.

I also think there’s a lot less social support around families. Lots of folks are very transient and following, you know, better quality of life, including a better job. And so there’s a lot of pressure, emotionally, financially, and socially on the marriage. And so having more isolation, I think, in marriages, where folks have less friendships, less family support, where they are getting their emotional needs met from a variety of people, that’s putting a lot of pressure on marriages. So that’s one thing I definitely notice.

And I’m constantly supporting families as they navigate those, you know, pretty normal and difficult challenges of being a family and maintaining a marriage.

Katherine Andrew  

I just wanted to chime in a little bit on what you just said, Veronica, in terms of adding to that, the pressures of social media and the perfection and the pictures of perfection that we get.

I obviously see it with food and eating. And this idea that we should have perfect meals and be able to cook them from scratch at all times, and the right macronutrients and all of these things that we’re all led to believe.

But I do feel like there’s just so many layers on a marriage on top of a marriage, and that we have too many things on our plate. So I see a lot of women that are just exhausted, trying to keep up with, you know, that idea of perfection and have no time quite frankly, to have sex with their husband or enjoy time alone. And don’t prioritize that time because they’ve they’ve got to get a kid to six different practices or you name it, what else is going on in their lives tends to take priority over the value of just time with a spouse or a partner in a relationship that seems to get sort of pushed down in a lot of those lists for people that I work with.

Jessika Shields  

I like exactly what you said, Katherine, as I think about some of the actual counseling, we’ve done. Marriage, couples or premarital couples counseling through our church. But one thing that we always say, and it goes right in line with what you just mentioned, is it’s important to be intentional in spending time like you have to be intentional, you have to set aside time for just you and your spouse to date, constantly dating each other.

Throughout your marriage, we have 21 and a half years under us. And we’re looking forward to 20 more, right? Me, my husband and I,  but putting aside time to be intentional, and carve out that time because we have four kids, there’s no excuse, and we have one child with a disability.

So when you start to be more intentional about those things, then that’s where you can put your focus. And then I will also add good communication, and being open, being able and ready to listen, and keeping those communication lines open.

Maris Feeley  

I think that that advice is so important, Jessica around dating your spouse and being communicative. Because I think one of the most common struggles is that at the end of the day, you’re not the same person. We change and we grow and evolve.

And like the fact that a lot of couples are married for eight years before getting divorced doesn’t surprise me because if you think about it, it’s about you know, four to eight years is this timeline in which we’re evolving and changing and we step into new roles, or we take on new jobs or you know, children grow up or change phases or you grow a family.

And so, I think when you’re getting married, a big difference in my mind between even just dating married to is that you’re making a commitment to not just love your spouse’s current self and for them to love you but you’re also kind of signing up for all their future selves, right and to dating them into figuring who out Who you all are in five years, 10 years, 20 years, and to try and love each other and choose each other through that.

And so I think a big thing we see, and I think why Parenthood in particular is so prevalent to this or can exacerbate a lot of those issues.  If you’re not really intentional, but it’s this huge change, right of who you are now as a parent, and with a whole other person or people in your home to take care of, and how that recommends your own individual identity and your identity as couples.

And I think that’s something that we see a lot with families, wherever they’re at in their journey, like Who are we going through a fertility journey? Who are we, you know, welcoming a little one into the world who are we six months postpartum, a year postpartum, five years postpartum, and needing to figure that out, over and over and over again, not only for yourself, but together. So I think that’s a really big part of this, too.

Erin Baute  

I echo lots of what folks are saying, and this is an area I’m really passionate about in my work, because we recognize in our sort of basic human neurobiology that we are communal people. We look to relationships, to heal and grow and find security and safety, right, like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, like, you know, I’m looking for that, that sort of safety, my physiological needs are met. So you know, belonging, all of that. And yet, it’s with people that we learn to sort of polish our rough edges.

And I love Gottman and his research around relationships, because he points out that 69% of the problems that we face in relationships with other people are unsolvable. Right? Like who I am, is inherent. And it is nature, nurture, it is nervous system related, it’s emotional regulation, it’s my level of self awareness and consciousness, you know, not to mention the societal context that are put over top of it.

And so in a lot of ways, we as individuals are incredibly underdeveloped in our skills to navigate the complexity of rubbing off our rough edges with other people. And so like, in my world, it’s nervous system work, its somatic, its emotional regulation, therapy, its self awareness, and consciousness and mindset work. It requires all of that to have language to be even able to set boundaries and say our needs, right. And so it’s really complex, to do life well with people. And I think we sort of enter into these institutions by marriage or partnership, or whatever you decide with lacking skills. And then the sort of heaviness of society puts the pressure back on us of Oh, it must be me.

And so I love that we’re having conversations with such a diverse group of people, because this bleeds into everything.

Crissy  

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. Erin. I’m really glad you shared that statistic, too. We had talked about that the other day. I love what Veronica brought up about sex, money, kids being the top reasons for dissatisfaction and divorce. In these long term relationships, obviously we know, sex and money.

I would love to dive into the kids, though. Because Mama Needs a Moment. It’s mostly parents that are listening to this. And kids are wonderful, beautiful beings, a blessing in our lives. But dang, they’re hard. I’m thinking of the new mom phase, the new dad phase, the new parent phase, where we’re bringing a newborn home, I’m thinking about the toddler phase, I’m thinking about the teen tween phase, thinking about when they move out of the house, and you’re still anxious about everything. I haven’t experienced that. But I know it’s coming. So we know that this is just a constant, it’s a constant source of pressure in our lives. How do we navigate that? How do we make this relationship that we’ve chosen, we picked this partner to spend our life with, and we’ve made this conscious decision to be a team. And yet when we throw these other people into our equation, it changes us and it changes our relationship.

How do we still, I know we mentioned a date night, but beyond that, how do we continue to like one another, as people when we’re both sleep deprived, barely eating in the muck of everything.

Jessika Shields  

Going through a journey together, should bring you closer and I’ll just speak from my experience with four kids. It was always important. First of all, my husband understood his role.

When we first brought that first child home. He was very supportive. So having the mindset that you’re already you know, you’re going to be experiencing something new together, and that you’re there to support one another and being of the same mindset that’s so important.

Also, I think it’s important that, you know, as you are parenting, one thing that we do that has worked well is when the kids are having their struggles, we’ll say their struggles, right? We talk to each other first, before we do a discipline plan, or before we bring the child in with a particular issue. But we talk first about, okay, this is what’s upsetting me, this is how I want to handle it. But I need your input.

Sometimes in the moment, we have a son who is six years old, he has a communication delay and some behavioral difficulties. So it’s hard because he can’t communicate his needs. So he might have a tantrum. And so when my husband feels overwhelmed, he’ll just say, I need your help. And I know what that means.

So we already have established a communication system. And we support each other in that discipline. Again, we talk about, okay, this is the problem, this is how I’m feeling about it. This is what I want to do, you know, and we have a conversation before we take some type of action in, you know, rearing our children. So we always talk, we’re constantly talking and communicating, so that we’re on the same page, and we’re not going to be pitted against each other by our kids. Because we already have established communication, and we already have a game plan.

And my kids will always say, Dad, why are you always taking mom’s side, you know. And that’s good, because they see that we’re on the same page, so that we can parent together, when we can have those conversations that ultimately let the kids know that look, we’re both going to have the same response to whatever’s happening.

It’s harder when you’re co parenting. But I know we have someone here on the line, who’s the expert in that. But that’s from our perspective, from what I’ve experienced. That works.

Katherine Andrew  

I wanted to jump in and add to what Maris said before about like, we change and and I think there’s this value of constantly reevaluating where we spend our time versus our priorities.

I think we decide that way early on in life. And then we don’t have enough margins in our days or time with our husbands back to that concept of like reevaluating, like are we spending too much time driving to soccer is this really more valuable to us than this other thing that we don’t get time for?

So I think it’s creating the space, not just having it but making the space and the time to communicate like you’re talking about Jessica and to have the conversations around like maybe we’re doing more than what really aligns with what matters to us, even though our neighbors are doing it. And they seem to be doing just fine with all of this is that going to work in our life right now.

Maris Feeley  

I’ll go with something I see a lot with our client base and that studies back this up. In heterosexual relationships, women are often referred to as kind of the household managers.

So even if sometimes, you know, there’s a perception or they feel to like my husband is a very equal partner, women often carry the moms carry the mental load of caring for everyone in the household. And I think that can really put a strain over time on marriages. Because sometimes I think it’s just quite frankly, easier for mom to just do it herself rather than to like, show her husband like where this is, you know, this is the schedule, this is the time like it’s just easier to just do it. But over time, that gap of moms time being done on the lunches and the school pickup and the looking to summer camps. And like that creates this gap and space. I think within a partnership between parents.

There is a New York Times article at the height of COVID-19 that talked about how women were just dropping out of the workforce moms are dropping out of the workforce in droves because that juggling caring for their children in the home. And juggling their job while there has been also worked from home was just creating too much of a strain. And so what had to go was mom’s priorities. And I think setting expectations and having really frank conversations.

A good friend of mine, before they welcomed their second child, sat down and had a whole conversation with her husband of like, here’s how I need you to do this, this in this drawing first. Here’s how like, we’re going to set this dynamic, you know, sneaky, slippery slope.

I think to kind of just end up in and being really intentional with that communication that Jessica talked about, and like, how are we spending time? How am I spending my time, like Katherine talked about and like, really sitting down and looking at the emotional labor, the physical labor that goes into having a family and who’s bearing the weight of that and how is that creating space or strain on your part.

Erin Baute  

yeah, marriage, that’s a really important conversation because there’s this really large component of justice and equity in whether it’s heteronormative relationships. But we see it in research around same sex couples that there is somebody who takes on the emotional labor of a relationship, right, we fall into some of these norms. And that sort of unseen emotional labor carries into our roles and other places.

I definitely saw it in corporate settings where the female CEOs are still planning the anniversary celebrations and the birthdays and the luncheons, where their male counterparts aren’t even thinking or questioning that these are things that we do around employee engagement.

And so someone mentioned in the comments about fair play, there’s a resource that I will find, and I will link that even goes further than fairplay about some of the oppressive aspects of emotional labor that impact our communities even deeper, that I think is helpful to look at for parents.

But it is, I think, a really important conversation that’s broader than us as individuals.

Kyrsten Spurrier  

I just wanted to add to that, I feel like as moms, we sometimes have a hard time letting go and giving responsibility to our partner. And so finding ways that we can still even off way some of that burden.

There’s sometimes the responsibility of kind of who runs the household to like, give up so that your children have some experience or have experiences with your partner and that you aren’t always doing everything.

We have this in my house, like my husband takes a full day of the week, and like, does all their care for the day. And it’s like, That’s Daddy Day. And so having our boys get used to Okay, daddy can do just the same things as Mommy can do. It has been a good transition for us because it was getting to the point that I had more responsibility in our daily lives, like you guys were saying, but then my boys were also getting used to that, and then demanding that I would do everything instead of my husband doing it.

So finding ways that you offset that as a mom and be like, No, that it can also do it or my partner can also do it. So just an idea that has worked for us to make our kids be okay with both parents doing both things.

Cindi 

Great suggestions! Everyone had really wonderful things to say for that. Thank you so much.

Something that, I think Maris said earlier was when you agree to marry somebody, you don’t only marry their current self, but who they’re going to be in the future. And I felt that was very poignant. It reminded me of a common vow that’s stated when individuals choose to enter the Union of marriage, which is, “for better or worse, in sickness and in health.” The vow has vastly changed in meaning over the past 100 years.

So I’d like to shift us a little bit and discuss how the institution of marriage and its meaning has shifted over the years. And what comes to mind for you, as noticeable differences. With the divorce rate being so high and the quote unquote, rise in cohabitation versus marriage increasing over the years, people can be quick to overlook the benefits of marriage. So what are the benefits? What are your top three daily practices for maintaining a strong union with your partner?

So we’re going to talk about the shift over the past 100 years benefits of marriage and what your daily practices are.

Veronica Kemeny  

This is Veronica, I would say. And I would actually widen and I mean, I think there’s the institution of marriage from the legal standpoint, from a religious standpoint. You know, I think some of the questions might also be long term partnership, right, because I think we’ve been talking a lot about how a lot of these challenges are just as common within long term partnership and commitment.

So I think if it is aligned with your values, to have a long term partnership, whether that be within or outside of marriage, that is then aligned with satisfaction for you, as a person as a human, that connection. As Erin was bringing up in terms of our desire to feel connected, and whether that is a priority for you, then that will be fulfilling.

And I think one of the benefits of commitment is that it will help you navigate those ups and downs, right? Because if we just focus on the comfort or discomfort of the moment, it’s very easy to bow out. And so really thinking about that zooming out and being really intentional about what do I want out of my life what I want out of this relationship and really not just making these decisions based on the ups and downs, but really zooming out and saying overall, is this fulfilling what I want for my life and its relationship. So I think that’s very important to consider.

And again, I think, you know, commitment can happen, inside or outside of marriage. And if that is a priority for a person, I think living aligned with those values by making that commitment is going to create fulfillment. And obviously, some challenges but challenges in a good way in terms of growth.

Maris Feeley  

I think piggybacking off of that, while what I’m about to say might sound upfront, a little bit depressing, hear me out. Marriage is so much more of a choice, now. 50 years ago, like a woman couldn’t hold a credit card in her own name.

With us, marriage used to be kind of a very logistical functional, I need to move out of my parents house, and I want to buy myself something and I need protection. And now with, you know, ever increasing equity between, you know, women with having more open, like queer relationships with having greater visibility, like economic equity, and just rights really, you know, I think we’re seeing that marriage is a choice to that commitment, like Veronica was saying, it’s that I love you and I want to be with you, I don’t have to be with you, because my bank account or my, like, individual rights will suffer without you.

And I think that we’re seeing more and more just like rights afforded to parents, even if they’re co parenting and not necessarily married. I mean, in Europe, in many European countries, it’s actually very much more common to create whole families and have whole lives together without ever getting legally married, or, you know, years on getting legally married. And a lot of that has to do with economic and like legal status and rights.

So I think in a way, it is a really positive news that people are much more intentional, and they’re taking their time, I think for sure to make that choice. But they are then going into it much more sure. And I think much more committed and working on themselves individually as well before hopping into, you know, marriage is no longer the default, check the box, it’s just what we do when you hit a certain age status. And I find that really beautiful, personally.

Jessika Shields  

I like what everyone has already shared. And you know, when you ask the question, what are your top three daily practices for maintaining a strong union, for me, and for my husband, one thing that we do pretty consistently is every morning before we depart, we pray together. So that’s one, that’s the first thing we do.

At the end of the day, we always say, Okay, what was the highlight of your day, I know, some people like to do the roses and thorns, highlight, maybe something didn’t go right. But we just decided to focus on the good.

And then, throughout the day, we always communicate because, again, we have to communicate for our child who has a disability. And, and sometimes we get, we have a lot of therapists in our home sometimes. So it’s so important, it’s very critical for us to communicate, especially if I need to stay at work a little bit later, do something else, you know, just to support family, whatever, we always communicate, is this going to be okay, you know, are you going to be okay, picking up? Or, you know, do I need to pick up because we’re constantly communicating, so that we’re always on the same page.

So I would say those are our three daily practices. And that’s what keeps us strong.

Erin Baute  

Those are great, I’m gonna have to borrow some of those. That was a beautiful question. And I was surprised at what came up as the three practices for me.

And I think the first thing is maintaining a sense of awe around my partner. He’s an incredible human being, and I can lose sight of that in the daily grind of parenting and life. And so I think that sense of awe holds both of our humanity.

I think, being curious about what agitates me about him or with him, keeps me out of a judgment free zone and projecting my own stuff.

And then I think gratitude is really important. Something we practice as a family as well, every night at dinner, everybody shares their three things from the day. And I think that’s a really beautiful way to be sort of grounded in this specific daily joys.

But like, Jessica, I have a neuro diverse kiddo who makes life really challenging. And so it’s not sugar coated, or all sunshine and rainbows, but it’s those things that I think keep my feet on the ground when it feels like we’re sort of getting hit with a hurricane.

Veronica Kemeny  

Yeah, to add to this, another thing I’m thinking about is, you know, going back to conversations around the mental load, and you know, just all of the demands. I mean, there’s so many structural things at play that I think both Erin and Maris have talked about. Really thinking about here in the US there’s very little financial and social support from a larger institution of government. So there’s a lot on families.

One of the things I’ve noticed with my clients who are feeling most connected in their partnerships is that it is not just their responsibility to get their needs met, but actually it is their partner’s monitoring of is my partner getting their needs met. So thinking about the things that make us us are really important as well, right?

We’ve talked about date nights, and we’ve talked about connection. And there’s so many things that need to be tended to, but things that just make us us individually, we are less likely to feel resentful towards our marriages, including even something like a date night when you’re like, I’m touched out and I haven’t done this thing that makes me feel alive. So really thinking about the clients who I feel like are really feeling connected are often saying, I love that my, you know, partner reminds me, hey, you haven’t, you know, go for that run today, you really need that, like, I’ve got it right, watching out for each other’s individual needs is also such a way to feel beautifully connected and supported, which then I think makes you feel more willing and more connected to your partner.

So that sort of really important piece that for a lot of my clients when they’ve figured that out and made a bit of a transition concretely for some of my client that looks like Okay, on a Saturday morning, you partner one, you’ve got a few hours and I’m holding down the floor and on a Sunday morning, you know, we swap. So even thinking about it’s a family value of that. Parents get their alone time and then they come back. And so I think for sure that is something that I’ve noticed has worked for a lot of the families I work with.